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Lyle McDonald Interview-Part 2
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By Jamie Hale
In your book the Ultimate Diet 2.0 you mention 4 types of body fat. Could
you outline those? On an interesting not you state that 3% body fat is
essential. Does this mean that bodybuilders who report bdft percentages
under 3% are probably incorrect?
LM: The four types of body fat with brief descriptions are
Essential fat: found in the brain and nervous system. Makes up about
3% of the total in men and somewhere between 9-12% in women. You
can't lose it and, if you could, you'd be dead.
Visceral fat: This is the gut fat that accumulates around the organs.
It's more often found in men (testosterone plays a primary role here
but so does cortisol which is why stress can increase visceral fat)
although women can get it too under certain conditions. The nice
thing about visceral fat is that it goes away pretty quickly (it's
more easily mobilized than the other types of fats); the bad is that
it has some really nasty negative health effects. Losing visceral
fat will tend to flatten a man's stomach even though his skinfolds
may not drop.
Subcutaneous fat: This is the fat under the skin that most people
think of when we talk about bodyfat. Men typically store most of
their sub-q fat around the midsection (abs/love handles/low back) and
upper back; women typically store it in their hips and thighs. Some
men have more of a female fat pattern, lean abs but fat hips/thighs
and some women can get a male bodyfat pattern. And, yes, most of
this is due to hormones mainly testosterone (For men) and
estrogen/progesterone for women. So if you take a male transsexual
and give him androgen blockers and pump him full of est/progest,
he'll lose his gut fat and get fat hips and thighs; same goes in
reverse for female to male transsexuals.
Stubborn bodyfat: This isn't really a distinction made in the
literature but it's one that I make. Stubborn fat is the stuff
that's a bitch to get rid of. For men this is usually the last of
the ab fat (low back can be a problem), for women it's hip and thigh
fat. Research is finding that certain fat depots are physiologically
different in terms of how they respond to lipolytic (fat
mobilization) stimuli, they also have very poor blood flow. If you
don't believe me, get a woman to let you feel her hips and butt; odds
are it's cold to the touch. Part of this is due to poor blood flow.
Men's ab fat is generally more stubborn than the rest on his body
(although far less stubborn than women's lower bodyfat) and research
has even identified differences in metabolism between superficial and
deep ab-fat as well as the fat in the lower vs upper ab area. now
you know why the lower abs are the last place to come in when you
diet.
As far as body composition measurements reporting sub 3% for men (or
sub 10% for women), it mainly has to do with the way that the
equations were first developed. Assumptions are being made about
things such as bone density that just really aren't accurate for
athletes or bodybuilders. So it's not that the athletes are lying,
the equations and methods that are being used are lying to them.
JH: In a recent chat we had you informed me the glucagon had no direct effect
on fat cells? Yet many people are under this assumption. What is glucagons
regulatory role in regards to metabolism?
LM: Glucagon is very lipolytic in rats which is where the idea came from.
Unfortunately, it doesn't appear to affect fat cells in humans.
Rather, glucagon's primary role in humans is to affect liver
metabolism, mainly to mobilize liver glycogen to make sure that blood
glucose stays stable. So think about what happens when you eat a
protein only meal, both insulin and glucagon go up. Now, if only
insulin went up, blood glucose would crash (because you didn't eat
any carbs). By increasing glucagon a the same time the body
maintains normal blood glucose concentrations.
JH: Do you agree with the food combining theory of high fat/ high protein,
high protein/ high carb, but never high fat/ high carb?
LM: Short answer: no. Although I don't disagree that eating too many
calories (which can occur with certain carb/fat foods) is probably a
bad idea (see comments below).
Longer answer: The newest version of this fad appears to be based on
a 10 year old outdate model where only insulin is important in
storing calories as the rationale is that you don't want to increase
insulin when there is dietary fat in your system. As the logic goes:
insulin is a storage hormone, insulin stores fat, if you raise
insulin when you eat fat, you get fat.
A couple of problems right off the bat.
#1: Protein does a decent job of raising insulin and it takes very
very little insulin to affect fat cell metabolism. #2: Dietary fat
affects fat cell metabolism with NO INCREASE in insulin. At least
two studies, using oral fat loading found a decrease in HSL and an
activation of fat storage despite no increase in insulin. The
apparent culprit, a little bastard called acylation stimulation
protein (ASP) which is activated by the presence of chylomicrons
(basically packaged triglycerides that are found in the bloodstream
after the meal). ASP increases glucose uptake into the fat cell,
increases insulin release from the pancreas and has been described as
'the most potent stimulator of triglyceride storage' in the fat cells.
I think that if food combining works in any fashion, it's because it
controls people's food intake. Basically, compared to a diet where
you can eat carbs and fat (the primary energy providing nutrients to
the body) at all of your meals, setting up a diet where you can only
eat one or the other at any given meal automatically tends to limit
calorie intake even if people think they are 'eating as much as they
want'. Since you can only eat fat at three meals/day, you end up
eating less of it than you would eating an uncontrolled diet where
you can eat fat at every meal. Same for concentrated carbs (which
can easily provide a lot of calories).
Also, a lot of people turn stupid when they bulk, they rationalize
that they 'need' that pint of ice cream or tray of cookies to gain
weight. Which means that they eat too many calories and that's why
they get fat. If food combining prevents them from doing that (and
it does, but so does not eating like a lazy ass pig), of course it
will 'work' in some fashion.
I think it's important to note that the primary advocate of food
combining (at least, the guy who repopularized what is really a very
old idea) has recently made modifications to his original scheme.
Now unprocessed carbs such as potatoes and beans and other low GI
fare (veggies, of course) are allows with the protein/fat meals.
My question to him: What did he think people were eating with their
protein/fat meals? Jelly beans and cake? So, basically, his food
combining plan now allows meals to consist of protein, vegetables,
low GI/unprocessed carbs and fat. Meaning that it took him several
years to get right back to what just about every bodybuilding
nutritionist ever has been recommending. Hooray for progress.
JH:Would you recommend an insulin spike in the meal following the post
workout shake or meal?
LM: Yes. A combination of fat digesting high GI carbs with some fast
acting protein. The hyperinsulinemia will shut down cortisol and
protein breakdown and the hyperaminoacidemia will stimulate protein
synthesis. Net effect is protein gain and a shift from catabolism to
anabolism. Fat and fiber should be avoided at this meal.
JH: In regards to stubborn fat is their a natural way to alter the the effects
Alpha and beta receptors exhibit in regards to lipase stimulation?
LM: Yohimbe or yohimbine HCL (which inhibit the alpha-2 receptors that
contribute to fat cells stubbornness) has been the classic approach
since Duchaine introduced us to it in Bodyopus.
Additionally, one study found that lowering carbs for 3-4 days had a
naturally inhibiting effect on alpha-2 receptors . My UD2 uses this
fact.
I'm currently finishing work on a full blown diet and training
protocol (an early version of which is floating around the web) to
help target stubborn fat. If I ever get off my lazy ass, it will
probably be my next book project.
JH:A hormone we are hearing allot about lately is Leptin. Why is it so
important?
LM: Leptin is one, if not the, primary hormone which signals the brain to
slow metabolic rate when you are dieting. Now, there are certainly
others, ghrelin and peptide YY from the gut and intestine
respectively also signal the brain, so does blood glucose and insulin
but leptin sort of sets the 'tone' of the brain and how it responds
to the other signals.
The short course on leptin goes something like this: leptin is
released primarily from fat cells (stomach and muscle also produce
small amounts) in relation to two things
a. how much fat you have
b. how much you're eating
So when you go on a diet, leptin drops very quickly. As you lose
fat, it continues to drop. It also goes up fairly quickly when you
overeat and more slowly as you gain/regain bodyfat. Basically it
'tells' the brain how fat you are and whether you are in positive or
negative energy balance. This lets the brain, which is ultimately
very concerned with your survival, know what's going on (and again,
other hormones play additional roles).
Unfortunately, the brain tends to response to a drop in leptin far
more than an increase which is why dieting is harder than gaining
weight as a general rule. Basically, leptin exists primarily as an
anti-starvation hormone, slowing metabolic rate, making you hungry,
crashing hormones, etc. when you diet. It just doesn't do as much
when you increase it except under very specific circumstances.
JH: Any projects coming up in the near future?
LM: Depends on your definition of 'near'.
I'm always sort of working on stuff, at least conceptually or in my
head. It's getting myself to sit down and write it down and hassle
with putting it together which is the problem. As mentioned above,
the stubborn bodyfat project is probably going to be dealt with
fairly soon. I should probably quit writing endlessly about dieting
and do something about training. Or a general sports nutrition type
of book. I don’t know, I always have way more ideas than I do the
willpower to make myself sit down and write stuff. As long as the
other books are selling and I can pay my bills, there's just not much
drive for me to do it.
--
Lyle
JH:
Thanks for the informative information you have provided readers. I must say Mr. McDonald this interview is one of the most informative I have seen to date. If readers need to contact Mr., Donald you can visit his site as www.bodyrecomposition.com .
Visit Jamie’s site at www.maxcondition.com
Coming soon the XDL Diet (xtreme density, leanness diet) by jamie hale
Copyright 2005 Jamie Hale
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